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Talk:The House of Daniel
Finally! This sounds like a hoot. TR (talk) 02:06, October 1, 2015 (UTC) :Hmm, the title must be a riff on the House of David. I'm kind of shamefaced not to have thought of that. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:43, October 1, 2015 (UTC) ::I can't say that I've heard of them before now. Google has been fairly helpful. TR (talk) 02:52, October 1, 2015 (UTC) :::They were an interesting footnote in the game's history. I don't recall whether they made the Ken Burns series. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:16, October 1, 2015 (UTC) It also echos "The House That George Built" which is a take-off of "The House That Ruth Built". "Book of Ruth" and "Book of Daniel" are both Old Testament Books hence "House of Ruth" and "House of Daniel". ML4E (talk) 20:06, October 1, 2015 (UTC) :That's true. I was thinking that Daniel and David were both first-tier Israelite heroes, so the founders of the commune might have chosen the one just as easily as the other. Turtle Fan (talk) 21:44, October 1, 2015 (UTC) Publishers Weekly Review Unlike the Fallout review, the PW review of this one is pretty positive (except for the "fantasy elements could be removed without changing anything" part). http://publishersweekly.com/978-0-7653-8000-5 TR (talk) 00:50, March 4, 2016 (UTC) :I'd forgotten about this one. I'm looking forward to it now. I'm glad the paranormal is superficial; I don't need another TCotTSD with my baseball story. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:23, March 4, 2016 (UTC) Steven Silver liked it Just another FYI. https://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/hod.html TR (talk) 02:25, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :Seems like it would be up his alley. :Both reviews have mentioned zombies. I fucking hate zombies. The Haitian mythical figures had some mystique and allure to them, but Romero turned them into creatures that inspire revulsion rather than honest fear, and ever since, more and more lazy writers have ripped off that already-dodgy premise, in painfully repetitive fashion, till the badly overused cliche has become the worst thing in fiction. I'm glad HT is obviously resisting the temptation to have them destroy the social order for the lulz, but I really wish he'd left them out altogether. ::Ironically, modern movie and TV zombies are more like folklore vampires. Instead, we get old world counts (and sparkles apparently). ML4E (talk) 19:14, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::Having read a few accounts of those old vampires, I can see why Stoker and so many others felt the need to punch them up a bit. (Obviously, the Twilight people went way too far in the wrong direction.) Their zombie-like tendencies were not lost on me, but they were isolated threats that would stalk a Slavic village here and there, not a zillion carriers of a pandemic that brings the global economy to its knees. Seriously, where's the appeal in that shit, let alone appeal that's strong enough to launch a thousand different iterations of the exact same story? But I digress. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:30, March 8, 2016 (UTC) ::::The references to zombies sound like the voodoo style ones, as they work in the mills for free or something. TR (talk) 04:43, March 8, 2016 (UTC) :::::That wouldn't be so bad. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:21, March 8, 2016 (UTC) :Actually, I can't help wishing it was just a straight historical fiction. T would have been deadly boring without the other-worldly beings, and TCotTSD, well, I thought it was deadly boring anyway, but clearly it stood or fell on the magical elements; but it sounds like this would have worked perfectly as straight hi fi. Telling a baseball story is the point, and if THTGB and TS&tR are any indications, HT's up to the task of writing a good baseball novel. And it's been a long time since I read a good baseball novel. (Actually, come to think of it, the last two I read both had supernatural elements of their own, which they engaged a bit too strongly; both were worse for it. One of the great ones, Darryl Brock's If I Never Get Back, had a supernatural event at the basis of its premise, but never built on it or explained it, and was stronger for that.) Turtle Fan (talk) 07:45, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::I wonder if that decision is more about marketing? Obviously HT can write pure historical non-fantastic fiction, but since he's "expected" to write genre fiction by his audience/editors/publishers etc., he may have decided to throw the fantasy elements in for his brand. TR (talk) 04:43, March 8, 2016 (UTC) :::It could be. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:21, March 8, 2016 (UTC) It's Out My Fire just auto-downloaded. Unfortunately, I can't imagine I'll find the time to read it till we're well into the summer, at which point it will have to compete with other new releases I'm somewhat more excited to read. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:09, April 19, 2016 (UTC) :Same here, but I may get to it in the next week or so. Thanks to a new job, I am now residing in a one-bedroom with no television while Mrs. TR is some 180 miles away. I do seem to find time for reading. TR (talk) 05:36, April 19, 2016 (UTC) ::Thanks to a new job, I'm residing in a one-room apartment with no TV as well, and while I've got no wife to be away from, it's the most solitary living situation I've ever had. Yet somehow the pace of my reading has slowed to a crawl. I don't at all understand it. Turtle Fan (talk) 06:08, April 19, 2016 (UTC) Historical Figures So there are thinly veiled historical figure analogs in this book after all: Carpetbag Booker (bit of a groaner, that) and Job Gregson (not sure whether there's anything to that pun, aside from the same initials and poetic meter). Too bad we can't create articles on the real Paige and Gibson, that would have been a hoot. Turtle Fan (talk) 07:13, May 8, 2016 (UTC) :RE:Booker/Paige. Yeah, bad that. Haven't gotten that far. ::They're name dropped in Chapter Ten. There's a hint that they may show up in person later. Or they may not. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:34, May 8, 2016 (UTC) :"Josh Gibson" is a pretty standard example of unremarkable Anglo-American naming, with no nickname. Gregson/Gibson--there are Books of Job and Joshua in the Tanakh/Old Testament, Gib is short for Gilbert, Greg is short for Gregory, -son carries over. Just not as versatile as Paige, who had that memorable nickname--if he'd simply been "Leroy Paige", I suspect HT would have gone with "King Booker" (which actually sounds like a spy name, rather than a baseball player). ::King Booker sounds even more horrible than Carpetbag. HT comes up with some great puns sometimes, but other times he just tries way too hard. Not crazy about Booker, either. I get that books are made up of pages, of course, but it takes an already awful nickname and makes it sound even worse. ::I figured that was probably how Gibson became Gregson. I guess HT worked so hard coming up with Paige's name that he had no energy left for Gibson's. ::By the way, the Crawfords are the Crawdads. Not exactly brilliant, but workable. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:34, May 8, 2016 (UTC) :And yeah, articles for Paige and Gibson would have been awesome. Always nice to use our small corner of the internets for good. TR (talk) 07:54, May 8, 2016 (UTC) ::Another reason to wish he'd ditched the zombies and vampires and made a straight hi-fi out of it. The world he built is so nearly realistic when the paranormal shit isn't featured--and it usually isn't--that it couldn't have been that hard for him to go the rest of the way with it. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:34, May 8, 2016 (UTC) Grover Cleveland Alexander is Benjamin Harrison Caesar. And Billy the Kid gets name-checked, so apparently there's at least one genuine historical to have. Along with the Kid we get the names of a handful of other gunslingers. None of them are familiar to me. Suppose I should look them up at some point. But even if they are historical figures, the articles on them would be limited to "So-and-so existed at some point." Turtle Fan (talk) 20:31, May 8, 2016 (UTC) :I've just read that scene. I think we should just go ahead and create the page for Billy the Kid. It would qualify as what I think of as an "annotation article", that is, an article designed more to give readers/users some idea of the broader nature of a given work rather than some specific plot point. In this case, it would be to demonstrate to readers, that despite the presence of vampires, wizards, the Big Bubble, and Carpetbag Booker, this world isn't that different from ours. I don't see value in articles for the other outlaws. Most readers will have heard of Billy the Kid, whereas only die-hard outlaw historians will have heard of any of those guys, and their value as even an "annotation" is rather dubious. They can go on the Las Vegas, New Mexico page when the time comes. :Incidentally, when I Googled those names, I was directed to a book from about 70 years ago that described various outlaws of New Mexico, and rattled that list off in the exact same order HT listed them in THoD. TR (talk) 14:24, May 14, 2016 (UTC) :HT made a big point of talking about the "Fred and Ginger" movie. Not sure if the context qualifies them for articles, though. TR (talk) 14:09, May 9, 2016 (UTC) ::Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. This really is as clear as mud. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:46, May 10, 2016 (UTC) "The Bambino": An Ambiguous Case I'll hold off on throwing any more of these out till you tell me you're finished, TR; it must be irritating to have me announce all the little in-jokes ahead of time. But I would appreciate if you'd start thinking about whether The Bambino is Babe Ruth himself (just as Billy the Kid himself apparently existed in this universe) or an analog like Booker, Gregson, and Caesar. It wouldn't be the first time HT created an analog and referred to that person solely by an OTL nickname (Joseph the Gamecock comes to mind right off the top of my head, and there were a handful of others in Detina as well, mostly much lesser lights) but the existence of the Kid, and the real-life geography (they meet a team from Washington State, which heavily, heavily implies George Washington existed and filled the same role as in our world) create enough of a question. I'm leaning toward giving the Ruth article a HoD section when the time comes (to match the XTime section it already has, which is also an ambiguous case) partly because, as far as I've read at least, we just wouldn't have much of anything to say about the Bambino if we decide he's a separate character, at least not as of Chapter 14. But I'd still like to get TR's opinion and make the decision by consensus, as we usually do. (ML4E, too, if you happen to be reading it as well.) Turtle Fan (talk) 03:46, May 9, 2016 (UTC) :The Luddite that I am, I am waiting for the public library to get their hardcopy in. It's on order and I have put myself on the waiting list. Either of you know when that is due to be published? ::It's out. It dropped on the same date as the e-book. TR (talk) 18:05, May 9, 2016 (UTC) ::I would have assumed as much. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:46, May 10, 2016 (UTC) :As far as The Bambino, we also have the reverse by Turtledove namely George Ruth as well as the fictional analog of George Herman. ML4E (talk) 17:43, May 9, 2016 (UTC) ::George Ruth is the same person as the Babe, in an ATL where he never got famous enough to have a famous nickname. As for George Herman, I'd argue that his inclusion in the article sets a precedent in favor of adding the Bambino to the Ruth article. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:46, May 10, 2016 (UTC) :::George Herman isn't on the Babe Ruth page. TR (talk) 03:50, May 10, 2016 (UTC) ::::Oh. Well that's new. Turtle Fan (talk) 07:20, May 10, 2016 (UTC) :::::Not really. We moved it in 2010. This doesn't preclude putting the Bambino on Ruth's page. But, remember, we are going to have a fairly robust Minor Fictional Characters page for THoD, too. ::::::Huh. Never noticed. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:24, May 10, 2016 (UTC) :::::I guess I wasn't clear. My point was that Ruth was known by his real name rather than his nickname in one sub-article while we have a separate article for an analog in Herman. So we could go either way, is my point. ML4E (talk) 17:57, May 10, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Ah, I see. I'm still for putting him in the Ruth article, I think. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:24, May 10, 2016 (UTC) :::::::A better precedent is Václav Havel in ItPoME. He's only referred to as a "playwright" from the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, and despite the presence of analog characters like Charlie Lynton, Kurt Haldweim, Rolf Stolle, etc, we just went ahead and called the unnamed playwright Havel, which, now that I think about it, is probably not the best policy. I'll read the Bambino pages before I actually cast a vote. TR (talk) 14:24, May 14, 2016 (UTC) :Oh and the main page should be updated to indicate the e-book is out. Probably the Joe Steele (novel) line can be dropped since its over a year old. ML4E (talk) 17:46, May 9, 2016 (UTC) ::Given how pathetically the Current Events page died of neglect, can't say I'm surprised. My bookmark, by the way, takes me directly to Recent Changes, so the main page is usually out of sight, out of mind for me. Still, I'm glad you mentioned it. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:46, May 10, 2016 (UTC) :::In fairness, HT's output has declined so dramatically in the last couple of years that we haven't had many events that are "current". TR (talk) 14:24, May 14, 2016 (UTC) ::::True, but the release date of CdE was not current as of last November. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:00, May 14, 2016 (UTC) Finished up and final thoughts Enjoyable but not my favorite HT work. Likable protagonist in Jack Spivey, but could have used a little more conflict--Jack needed more to overcome than just losing a game here or there. The Great Zombie Riot was pretty nifty (I assume it was a quick potshot at the post-Romero zombie genre), Jack grew well enough, and the supernatural elements felt more, well not essential, but useful, anyway. :I was going to read the final chapter before going out in a few minutes, but the late afternoon kind of got away from me so I'll have to wait. I've certainly read enough to form an opinion, and it pretty much matches what you've said on everything but the Zombie Riot. The endless cloning of Night of the Living Dead is to me the most tasteless thing in fiction these days, and should have been ignored. :Otherwise, the supernatural stuff did add some flavor. The encounter with a waffle-loving Sasquatch had me burst out laughing. And I was in public at the time, so yeah. Still in all, I think I would have preferred a straight historical fiction, if only so we could have had the real Satchel Paige. Some historical figures are so colorful that one should accept no substitutions. (Custis Cawthorne made me feel tbe same way, but in that case there was good reason why he couldn't be the real Franklin.) Turtle Fan (talk) 04:04, May 22, 2016 (UTC) As for our little project here--since the Bambino is at one point mentioned in the same breath as "Larrupin' Lou", I think we just put him in Minor Fictional Characters page. It's "Ruth", but not. (Similarly, I assume "Larrupin' Lou" is a Gehrig/DiMaggio combo). :Why a Gehrig/DiMaggio combo? 1934 was two years too early for DiMaggio's major league debut (though he was already one of the PCL's brightest stars, so he could have appeared in the story rather more organically than Ruth or Gehrig). And Gehrig wore the "Larrupin'" nickname long before DiMaggio came up. It wasn't as common (nor as good) as the Iron Horse, but it was there. He even led a barnstorming team named after it one winter. ::Huh, my Googling was weak, evidently. I didn't find the "larrupin'" nickname. Well, so much for my point. TR (talk) 04:26, May 22, 2016 (UTC) :::Growing up in a Yankee family, as I did, might have helped. Turtle Fan (talk) 07:49, May 22, 2016 (UTC) :Then there's the one place they stay with the fake log cabins, and we're told "Honest Abe" could have stayed there. This use of real-world nicknames that leave historicity an open question is terribly cagey. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:04, May 22, 2016 (UTC) I also think that rather than create a bunch of articles about the semipro teams that would amount to "the House of Daniel played team in about month and lost/won by score", we just go ahead create a single "Semipro Teams in THoD" page, and acknowledge OTL analogs. (And for the record, yes, there was a team called the "Swastikas" in Cañon City, Colorado at the beginning of the century, but they'd bailed long before the Depression. And yes, "Swastikas" would still be an appropriate team name in Cañon City today. Not just for the prison team, either.) :I like the idea of a list of teams in one article, though there are probably two or three that deserve their own articles, like the Crawdads and the Greasemen. :In addition to the MLB teams with punny names I mentioned earlier, we've got Bengals and Buccaneers. The Tigers and Pirates, respectively, I assume. Though I couldn't help noticing they also share names with real-world NFL teams. ::Yeah, that's not a coincidence I'm sure. TR (talk) 04:26, May 22, 2016 (UTC) :Meanwhile, all the PCL teams that get name-dropped share their names with real teams from the same cities. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:04, May 22, 2016 (UTC) Now, I just have to find a good color that says "magic baseball". (I won't be surprised if colourlovers has a color actually called "magic baseball", come to think of it.) TR (talk) 03:09, May 22, 2016 (UTC) Finished It Too I finished the book last night and have to say I enjoyed it even though I'm not what you would call a baseball fan. I agree with the above on a list of teams the House played. Might make it two lists, one prior to the big Denver Post Tournament and one after. It or they might also be listed alphabetic by team name and chronologically by date of game. I didn't pay close enough attention but my sense is that Turtledove probably had to chart the road trip to get the dates to fit and we can back calculate them exactly. It also occurs to me that the actual games and descriptions of the ballparks could be placed inside the articles for the cities/towns they were played in. The barnstorming tour could also be described there as a paragraph outlining their route from the previous town. As an example for "City X": :Start in City Y, drive along US highway ab, turn onto US cd at Town Z and arrive at City X. :Play next day at M Field (with the following dimensions) against X Clodhoppers giving a one paragraph summary of the game including final score. :Stay overnight / head out that night for City W. Now that I think of it, the chronological order of the games will also supply the barnstorming route if we include the town name the game was played (assuming the team name doesn't give it). The Bambino probably should be added to the Minor Characters article, along with any other historical ballplayers that are referenced but don't make a significant appearance along with a Lit. Comm. on who they are analogs of. I think there are probably more than the obvious name references but I don't know baseball history to tell you. The example I have in mind is the "magnificent splinter" they play in LA. He is in his late teens but a great hitter (and a right bastard) and gets called up to a major's farm team shortly after the House plays his team. Jack mentions following his career in the papers and is surprised no on has killed him yet. I get the distinct impression he is a historical ballplayer who would have been born in the mid-1910s and raised in California. Any idea on who he is? ML4E (talk) 20:44, June 1, 2016 (UTC) :I meant to bring him up, too. We're pretty obviously supposed to "get" who that is. TR (talk) 22:58, June 1, 2016 (UTC) ::Ted "The Splendid Splinter" Williams Turtle Fan (talk) 23:09, June 1, 2016 (UTC) Ah, I thought it would be someone like that. We also have Spoonerisms like the great, contemporary singer Joel Alson. Him I would put in the Minor Fictional Characters along with a Lit. Comm. ML4E (talk) 18:17, June 2, 2016 (UTC) :Thinking about it, I think Billy the Kid was the only historical person HT was straight forward about ID'ing. He referenced Robert E. Lee and P.G.T. Beauregard by their last names only, Abraham Lincoln was merely "Honest Abe", that Washington state existed at all sort of implied George Washington, but not directly. Then there was the general description of Mussolini, Jack's opining that the country had nothing to fear but fear itself, and that the Russians were run by vampires. Then we have all the baseball players mentioned above, Joel Alson, and the vague reference to a "Fred and Ginger" movie. I'm definitely drifting into the "they belong on the fictional characters page with lit comments" camp at this point. Based on what HT did the novel, the Bambino could just as easily be Herman "Nino" George as George "Babe" Ruth, and "Larupin' Lou" could be Lou Spearman rather than Lou Gehrig (I had to look that translation up.) TR (talk) 19:01, June 2, 2016 (UTC) ::There's also "that noisy fellow on the other side of the ocean" to whom the team in New Mexico refused to concede the hooked cross. And if Larrupin Lou is some other Lou and Honest Abe is some other Abe, Billy the Kid could just as easily be some other Billy (especially since the real Kid was actually named Henry). ::When you look for hard confirmation of historical identities, I think we came up completely empty here. Too bad, there are so many colorful new sections we could have written otherwise. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:31, June 2, 2016 (UTC) Just read it Unbelievably boring. Just the narrator and his teammates doing ordinary baseball stuff in one town after another, with fantasy interludes that serve no purpose. This had a serviceable "Batboy" type of short story buried in it somewhere, but it drowned in a sea of repetitious filler. :It was a story meant to explore an atmosphere rather than trace a plotline. I personally found the atmosphere well realized for the most part, though that's a matter of individual taste. The baseball motif was clearly a labor of love. Turtle Fan (talk) 08:29, December 16, 2016 (UTC) ::I liked the atmosphere in the first few chapters, but lost interest quickly. HT should have kept the concept down to a short story, as it couldn't carry a novel. :::I found it worked. I broke it up into small bites over a period of most of a month, I probably would have found it repetitive if I'd tried to read it in one long go. Turtle Fan (talk) 17:56, December 17, 2016 (UTC) About the historical figures, in addition to the ones listed above, the Daniels get cheered by people from Eugene, Oregon at one point, implying the existence of Eugene Skinner, or maybe his analog Skinny Eugene. :You know, it's amazing how often I'm coming upon references to that one random town lately. Just tonight my cousin told me over dinner that her parents are suddenly thinking of moving there. Turtle Fan (talk) 08:29, December 16, 2016 (UTC) ::Incidentally, that statement must have been made on one of the suckiest days in Eugene history. An ice storm blocked roads with fallen trees in a city which never prepares itself for snow, and knocked out power to thousands of people, in the process keeping me from posting on the Internet for a day. But Eugene has a lovely culture, typified by this hermaphroditic angel whom I have had several pleasant encounters with in the recent past. :::Oh. Sorry to hear that. Turtle Fan (talk) 17:56, December 17, 2016 (UTC) It was dumb that HT didn't just use straight-up historicals. This cutesy naming analog business is more appropriate to a Bullwinkle Moose cartoon.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:13, December 16, 2016 (UTC) :I would have preferred a straight historical fiction novel. The zombies were revolting as ever, and all the other phantasmagoria were needless distractions. And yes, I still wish we'd met real people instead of incredibly labored punny analogs. Carpetbag Booker, indeed. Turtle Fan (talk) 08:29, December 16, 2016 (UTC) ::There was that Sad Slim Smith, or whatever, whom HT names as a hist fig in the afterword. That must be the only genuine historical in the novel. HT should have stuck to what he knows best, and not done the Doctor Strangelove pun-name thing. Another thing I'm reminded of is Brendan DuBois' otherwise excellent AH Resurrection Day, which features the wacko General Ramsey Curtis, when there's no good reason he couldn't have just called the character Curtis LeMay.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:51, December 16, 2016 (UTC) :::What does HT know best that he didn't stick to here? Punny names? He's got a long history of those. The Depression era, the western US, baseball, fantasy elements (the damned zombies are new, but not too far off the beaten path for him), a system of religious beliefs sketched out from a few vague generalities--It's all part of his MO. That's not to say it's always done well, but there's nothing here that's a departure for him. Turtle Fan (talk) 17:56, December 17, 2016 (UTC) Great Depression vs. 1930s Ok, I give up, Jonathan, why is it more important to say "1930s" instead of "analog of the Great Depression"? TR (talk) 16:47, December 17, 2016 (UTC) :Given all the historical details that are just a bit skewed, I don't think it's at all safe to assume that they use the same calendar we do. Turtle Fan (talk) 17:58, December 17, 2016 (UTC) ::The story (except for the later part of the last chapter) is identified by Jack Spivey as taking place over the course of 1934.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:09, December 17, 2016 (UTC) :::You still haven't answered TR's question. Looking over the two versions, I prefer the older version. I am tempted to revert your changes unless you convince me otherwise. ML4E (talk) 19:49, December 17, 2016 (UTC) ::::Saying 1930s is less wordy and cumbersome.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:21, December 18, 2016 (UTC) ::::Saying during the Great Depression is more informative about the nature of the story. I have left them alone for now, but I think some of your previous edits made the articles too terse and had removed useful information. ML4E (talk) 16:56, December 19, 2016 (UTC) Historical figures referenced by name On page 93, Jack uses "rich as a Rockefeller" as a simile. Also, the fact that the plot involves Denver implies the existence of James W. Denver.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:35, January 14, 2017 (UTC) And that another chapter involves Van Horn, Texas, implies the existence of James Judson Van Horn.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:45, January 14, 2017 (UTC) :....And? TR (talk) 07:51, January 14, 2017 (UTC) ::It's fun to see who existed in that TL or at least had a similarly named analog. Juarez is also a city namesake, and on page 126 the Daniels reference Lee and Beauregard as CS generals.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:18, January 14, 2017 (UTC) Vampire Stories I have just deleted the new cat of "Werewolf Stories" (not enough examples for the cat to exist) when i noticed HoD is listed as a "Vampire Story". I disagree with that categorization since vampires are incidental to the story and think the cat should be removed. ML4E (talk) 19:48, July 17, 2018 (UTC) :I disagree as well. Categories such as these are for stories about something, not featuring something. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:03, July 17, 2018 (UTC) ::Should we change the name of the category to "Stories about Vampires" to avoid this issue? And would "Stories featuring Vampires" be a viable companion category? TR (talk) 20:22, July 17, 2018 (UTC) :::To the first point, I guess we could, though I think everyone but Jonathan grasps the distinction intuitively. The second point would I suggest not be very interesting at all. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:24, July 17, 2018 (UTC) :::The second point was what Jonathan was doing with his creation of "Werewolves", "Dragons" and "Unicorns" cats. Personally, I find little value in categorizing fantasy stories by what creatures appear in them. Anyone interested can go to the particular creature article and see what stories they appeared in. ML4E (talk) 21:28, July 17, 2018 (UTC) ::::You'd think so, wouldn't you. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:12, July 18, 2018 (UTC)